Curse

Jetdoc · Oct 26, 2006, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc0

Granted, I'm sure this will have some positive affects somewhere, I just don't see it being solo farming.

This will negatively impact solo FARMING due to the speed of the kills. You can still "farm" the trolls outside of Droknar's, but it will take longer.

For pure solo PvEers like me, however, it's very nice, as the speed of the kill isn't as important as getting the kill itself.

I'm going to go back to Thunderhead Keep and see if I can solo it with the new AoE changes. I bet that it becomes very soloable if you pack an AoE specifically to keep the heat off of you and the King.

Marc0 · Oct 26, 2006, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

This will negatively impact solo FARMING due to the speed of the kills. You can still "farm" the trolls outside of Droknar's, but it will take longer.

There's no real difference in farming & soloing, the only thing is your motivatoin. Either you like the challenge of killing stuff alone or you like getting gold/loot that drops or XP.

It does hamper certain classes in solo play & farming

Oh yeah, Hook em Horns!

HzzB · Oct 26, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

I don't need to buy Nightfall, or even play Guild Wars in general. Better off selling my account and switching to a real game like WoW or SecondLife.

Hah-hah, who cares?

I like this new patch!
Solo farming now is much more interactive.
Actually, I spend all gold to create the new solo builds, LOL. Henches are smarter and heroes are part of gameplay now.

Siren · Oct 26, 2006, 11:01 PM // 23:01

The underlying point that many people here are saying is totally valid: that something needs to be fixed. Some of those comments were NOT coming from the so-called "mindless farmer" crowds, either. Had those reactions been solely from the farmers, labeling it as complaining for the sake of complaining or even invalid would have been appropriate.

But it's not only farmers. It's most people who play PvE. The comments don't focus only on how incredibly difficult it's now become to farm anything; there's a major focus on how PvE is going to play (and what these after-effects hold in store) in conventional combat strategies.

In the update notes, the AI changes dealt specifically with how monsters reacted when met with AoE. In conventional combat strats in PvE (and combat strats do exist in varying ways, despite what some may say), AoE is not all that is used. I'm a big fan of FoC+Dese/Defile Enchants, but even that's not a prolonged AoE effect, just like how VwK is not a prolonged AoE effect. Just like how Barrage really isn't a prolonged AoE effect. Shield of Judgment is not a prolonged AoE effect. Hell, Reckless Haste+Spiteful is barely a prolonged AoE effect (it's more packet damage than DoT).

This change didn't only hurt farmers. It hurt everyone who uses any type of Cyclone Axe attack skills or indirect spell-casting in PvE. And that's the truth. If these errors aren't corrected, we're going from a pretty solid and playable PvE experience where there can be a fairly wide diversity of workable builds, to an extremely, extremely limited vacuum of only a small handful of mildly viable single-target builds. But it's not only existing PvE that's in danger here. It's the future PvE that's in danger, as well.

Dervishes operate SOLELY on the same type of punctuated burst-style AoE damage you see in Barrage, FoC, or even SS. They use packets of damage as opposed to the prolonged AoEDoTs like Firestorm.

I have no problem with the AI reacting intelligently to damage (in fact, they were reacting just fine to damage before this update). I want the AI to back-off and come at me from a new angle if I slap them with a FoC spike that's doing 140 damage. I want the AI to get creative when they try to kill me.

But scatter aggro, random movements, and arbitrary focus drops are neither intelligent nor creative.

Zeph · Oct 26, 2006, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

IMO, this is still the best update since Sorrows Furnace.

I agree totally.

And yes I am a farmer, I had a 605, I used to 55/ss dual all the time but they were only a few of many many farming options. The reason I like farming is for the challenge, and after this update a lot of old stale things are a fresh challenge. It's all good.

GG Anet, ignore the whiners, a lot of players love this update.

Akhilleus · Oct 26, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

you're like person number 122 who says that :P
But none of these people actually tell what they do, or their farming build, so I actually doubt you have any.

actually, as ive stated WELL over 1,000 times, i was a trader. and a very well-known trader in the community at that...
as for me actually not having money, i'm not going to entertain that with a response here.

JoeKnowMo · Oct 26, 2006, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Omg, the monsters will no longer be brainlessly bashing away at a warrior using a tank build while SS is on them!
WTF? the solo/duo farmers need to come up with new builds!
Zomg, the monsters might scatter and the casters will need to learn how to kite!
Oh noes, pve teams won't consist of the same professions using the same builds over and over!

How dare they take away the boredom of pve!
I paid 50 bucks so I could "enjoy" the repetitive builds and gaming of the snoozefest known as pve!
I'm sure there must be another boring game out there where I can mindlessly do the same thing over and over!
GG, Anet. No thanks for making pve exciting again.

/end sarcasm

Kahlindra · Oct 26, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

I just wish a few folks would actually go and play the game a little with the new update in place BEFORE announcing the end of the world/the end of their lives/the beginning of their WoW career etc. The totally baseless speculation is ridiculous.

Logging for 10 minutes to find out your favourite farming build doesn't work is a bit lame, tbh. If you really enjoy GW, find a way of thinking around the new problem. Use your skill > time played, lawwl.

Personally I don't notice too much difference apart from things being a bit more interesting, and that is having tried out all my characters in both group and solo situations.

Siren · Oct 27, 2006, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

Oh noes, pve teams won't consist of the same professions using the same builds over and over!

You're confusing player preference/stagnancy with game structure. We saw the same professions using the same builds over and over again because players felt that those builds were the most desirable. But other builds still worked just as well, if not better. What we saw there was player consensus, albeit a very lame player consensus.

What we may very well see here in terms of PvE builds is going to be totally dependent on these new limitations of the game design. What we're probably going to see will be based on game structure rather than player preference.

Don't fool yourself into seeing this change as opening up options. It's actually closing down and limiting options when you really think about it. You think PvE build design is boring and stagnant now, just wait until you try playing against a totally scattered AI and come to realize that maybe half of the builds you previously knew can be totally scrapped, and the remaining half are marginally effective. You might argue that it'll force players to get creative. Creative to what end? Snare-based gameplay? In order to mitigate what we're seeing here, you're going to need an entire character solely devoted to snares. Team build design isn't going to expand...quite the opposite. It's just going to hyperfocus on keeping enemies in range.

Taurus · Oct 27, 2006, 12:31 AM // 00:31

I still think that monsters should "sprint/rush" out of the battle, kiting works for real players and if Anet can code it, it should work for monsters too.

Gaia_Hunter · Oct 27, 2006, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurus

I still think that monsters should "sprint/rush" out of the battle, kiting works for real players and if Anet can code it, it should work for monsters too.

There is a reason Monsters are Monsters, and players are players.

GuildWars is world dominated by the human race at large. All the big cities are human (some dwarf too).

There is also a reason Monster parties (i.e., mobs) are larger then human, and higher lvl too.

Monsters are there to be killed. Thats why everytime you enter an explorable area, new fresh mobs of monsters are there.

Some mobs, yes, should be particularly nasty and require some good coordination and interaction by the players in a party, but those should be special monsters that give good rewards, and not some fuking patrol that just happens to be in the road.

Even in PvP human clashes, with the exception of RA and TA, you cant run forever, because you have a hero/guild lord to protect, a flag to capture, a point to control. The monsters dont have any objective other than kill you, and the only way you can defeat them is to kill them.

So if monsters simply run away from you, going to meet with the other 3023242345245 monsters in the map, while your party is composed of 8 players, when hurt, Anet better give good starting skills to chase/slow to every single class, cause I cant see what a monk with orison of healing and banish can do to stop the monsters. And if those monster have 2-3 healers that just kite when attacked/low hp, well...

And remember the game is supposed to be played solo (with henches support) if you want to.

In PvP, teams have the same number of players, cant exceed the others in lvl and have similar objectives. Monsters are a different story.

Jetdoc · Oct 27, 2006, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

As stated earlier in this thread, I actually think the new AI changes will make it EASIER to kill large groups. If you're soloing and getting pounded, and half of your enemies scatter away because they are being damaged, that will allow you to focus fire on the remaining enemies.

Yes, it will take longer to kill them off, but IMO killing 10 enemies one at a time is a whole lot easier than trying to kill them all at the same time.

This definitely hurts the repetitive farmer, but can only benefit the true solo PvE players like myself. Nice update A-Net!

I officially retract this statement.

While soloing parts of the game last night, I found that I could never kill ANY PvE group.

The new AI update basically requires that parties "spike" individual monsters, so that you can get the kill before they run away. When you solo (or at least when I solo), the goal is to outlast your opponents. With the new AI change, basically I found myself fighting ONE enemy at a time, as the other enemies are running like mad all around the map to get away from me once I get their health low enough.

And it's very difficult for one character that is focused on self-preservation to generate enough offense to spike a single enemy down.

Gotta rethink my entire strategy now. I may simply bring an offensive-minded character, hoping that my damage output will allow me to take down enemies one at a time, while generating enough offense on the others to where they run around like madmen.

Definitely not a complaint from my end - I still think it will make it easier to handle PvE solo - but it definitely will completely shift my way of playing the game.

Sid Soggybottom · Oct 27, 2006, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Surprise surprise. Some of the most vocal farmers here are the same very vocal people who were deadset against inscriptions. As I told them before, they don't care about playing the actual game if they're so willing to quit just because they can't farm and hoarde more wealth.

How childish and irrational is it to threaten to quit when a whole new chapter of content just came out? That tells you that they don't even play the game except to farm and get richer and richer.

Besides, farming isnt dead. But mediocrity and stagnant builds sure are.

Katari · Oct 27, 2006, 03:39 PM // 15:39

A physical-heavy team of henchies just smashed RoF to peices with no deaths last nights (even killing the first seal would kill some henchies prior to this update, unless you happened to be a good monk). It went smoother than most PUGs that I've seen there.

-The fastest killing teams in general PvE missions involved lots of warriors and ranges, with an orders nec. That hasn't changed one bit.
-I didn't see any cases at all of having to chase monsters all around the map. I donno, they could have been just dieing too fast for that to be a problem. But if henchies can drop mobs fast enough, what's the problem? Surely player teams are better than henchies, right?

Unless you're running with such brilliant characters such as 9 weaponmastery mending wammos, and the like, there just shouldn't be problems. If henchies can drop Jade Armors and Lava Spitters fast enough, players really should be able to drop anything else fast enough.

With an old trollfarming build, I could still clear trolls as a warrior, it just took longer. I really don't see a problem here. When the trolls ran away from me, I just followed a few of them. The end result? I had 3-5 trolls attacking me at all times. Dervishes should be fine.

Also, the trollfarming example is a bit extreme. It isn't very common for PvE mobs to contain that many melee monsters, nor bunch up so closely. Go and think on what monster mobs are like elsewhere (I mean quests, missions etc, not other old farming spots). It really isn't that common for a warrior to be tanking a silly amount of monsters as it is. The nerf has nearly no negative impact on general PvE. Fortunatly, I care more about that sorta of PvE than farming. Thank god.

Edit: And oh, all you people claiming PvE was made to be more like PvP. It wasn't. The monsters can't build against you, heck, they still don't even have 8 skills, nor are they in well balanced groups for the most part. Static AI, no matter how annoying, should not be able to outplay humans. The update tweaked the AI, and made it smarter reguarding AoE, and general self-preservation. But it did not make fighting monsters similar to fighting players. Is the AI a bit smarter? Yes, is it competitive? No, not at all from what I have seen of it.

And again, all the people complaining about difficulty killing mobs? Seriously, just what are you guys hitting with? 9 weaponmastery mending wammos? Are teams still depending on SS? I don't get it. I took henchies all over the shiverpeaks, and had zero problems.

Horseman Of War · Oct 27, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

vwk farming is no different from what ive seen, and thats the only solo-farm i really get into.

this is me not caring.

I think the AI buff was long overdue- although my mesmer misses using echo chaos storm, I made different builds and got over it.

Alfrond · Oct 27, 2006, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katari

A physical-heavy team of henchies just smashed RoF to peices with no deaths last nights (even killing the first seal would kill some henchies prior to this update, unless you happened to be a good monk). It went smoother than most PUGs that I've seen there.

-The fastest killing teams in general PvE missions involved lots of warriors and ranges, with an orders nec. That hasn't changed one bit.
-I didn't see any cases at all of having to chase monsters all around the map. I donno, they could have been just dieing too fast for that to be a problem. But if henchies can drop mobs fast enough, what's the problem? Surely player teams are better than henchies, right?

Unless you're running with such brilliant characters such as 9 weaponmastery mending wammos, and the like, there just shouldn't be problems. If henchies can drop Jade Armors and Lava Spitters fast enough, players really should be able to drop anything else fast enough.

With an old trollfarming build, I could still clear trolls as a warrior, it just took longer. I really don't see a problem here. When the trolls ran away from me, I just followed a few of them. The end result? I had 3-5 trolls attacking me at all times. Dervishes should be fine.

Also, the trollfarming example is a bit extreme. It isn't very common for PvE mobs to contain that many melee monsters, nor bunch up so closely. Go and think on what monster mobs are like elsewhere (I mean quests, missions etc, not other old farming spots). It really isn't that common for a warrior to be tanking a silly amount of monsters as it is. The nerf has nearly no negative impact on general PvE. Fortunatly, I care more about that sorta of PvE than farming. Thank god.

Edit: And oh, all you people claiming PvE was made to be more like PvP. It wasn't. The monsters can't build against you, heck, they still don't even have 8 skills, nor are they in well balanced groups for the most part. Static AI, no matter how annoying, should not be able to outplay humans. The update tweaked the AI, and made it smarter reguarding AoE, and general self-preservation. But it did not make fighting monsters similar to fighting players. Is the AI a bit smarter? Yes, is it competitive? No, not at all from what I have seen of it.

And again, all the people complaining about difficulty killing mobs? Seriously, just what are you guys hitting with? 9 weaponmastery mending wammos? Are teams still depending on SS? I don't get it. I took henchies all over the shiverpeaks, and had zero problems.

I agree. I haven't had any trouble either from this update. In fact, I really like it. I've found its actually easier now to kill mobs with henchies (as their fleeing means they do less damage), and the minor farming I do is going as well as ever. I realize some of you use real specific builds that are no longer very useful, but if you change some skills, some tactics, or try a new build I think everything will be okay.

lyra_song · Oct 27, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Does this mean life transfer will become viable in PVE?

Jetdoc · Oct 27, 2006, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Does this mean life transfer will become viable in PVE?

Degeneration in general just became a powerful PvE tool.

Get some damage on your baddies, then spread the degeneration love...and watch them die like chickens with their heads cut off.

I'm going to try this tonight and see if I can get some amusing screenshot/video footage. Maybe I can get in some dancing while they all die as well, to show how amusing this AI change will be.

saphir · Oct 27, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

Omg, the monsters will no longer be brainlessly bashing away at a warrior using a tank build while SS is on them!

lol, you really have no idea do you?

that's exactly what the monsters do now after the new update!
I've never seen mobs act sooo stupid before.. They run in, regardless of which party member aggro'd them and make a beeline straight for the warrior or whoever has the highest armor rating.

What sort of idiotic enemy heads straight for the single guy who can generally withstand the most damage? They so singlemindly attack the warrior that they ignore all the nukers and ss necros casting merrily away. So what if aggro scatters a bit more than before, the stupid enemy runs away a few steps, then proceeds to charge right back into the fray w/ the warrior at the center. Few seconds later, SS and meteor shower finish their job even quicker than before the new update.

The warrior might as well have a huge sign over his head saying "attack me! attack me"
No need for the monks or other casters to keep out of aggro range anymore. They are never in danger if they overlap w/ the warrior, because the mobs will just chain aggro straight to the warrior.

If anything the new update has made AI more stupid than it was before.
You know something is wrong with PVE when you can clear all of FOW in a little over one and a half hours w/ any old PUG you get in TOA. In fact, not a single pug I've been in, even the worst of the worst has been unable to make it to at least the first chamber in UW.

If this keeps up into the release of nightfall, it will be training a whole new generation of players completely clueless about aggro, cast range, or kiting.

Gilford Gryphonwing · Oct 27, 2006, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Well so far I have had no problems farming. Went out of Camp Rankor with a healer and protector henchie, my character is Wa/Mo. Yeah, the mobs run when low health but, I learned to use a crippling strike more often. Slows them down tremendously and I go in for the kill.

Seems like the idea of running away when low health is a normal thing to do. Run and recover, well most of us will figure out the best way to counter that move. I know I can still farm and have a good time. I go out with a fellow guildie and we can farm together pretty well. Usually dont need a full group. We will be testing out other areas tonite and see what we get.

Good luck to us all.